From Noise to Sound
How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?
In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.
Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.
New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.
From Noise to Sound
#Silvia Fernández Biesa - When Hormones Disrupt Work: The Untold Story of Menopause
In this episode, I engage in an important discussion about menopause—a topic often left unspoken and misunderstood, especially in professional settings. My guest is Silvia Fernandez, a psychiatrist specializing in mental health and estrogen-related challenges at work. Together, we examine how menopause affects women psychologically, and why it matters to both individuals and organizations.
Silvia explains the three phases: pre-menopause, menopause, and post-menopause. We explore the emotional shifts women experience, especially during perimenopause, when hormonal fluctuations can lead to mood swings, anxiety, and confusion—often intensified by life pressures like aging parents or teenage children. These psychosocial effects are just as crucial as physical symptoms.
We highlight the stigma that keeps menopause in the shadows, even though nearly 10% of women aged 40–60 leave their jobs due to related challenges. This signals a major loss of experience for companies that ignore the issue. Awareness and open dialogue—among women, their partners, and employers—are vital to change this.
Silvia stresses the value of vulnerability. When women speak openly about their struggles, they not only empower themselves but also foster understanding in their surroundings. This can improve both workplace policies and personal relationships.
We also touch on how menopause affects sexuality. Silvia encourages women to redefine self-worth and embrace this life stage with confidence. Menopause is not an end, but a transformation.
This episode is a call to break the silence and support women in navigating menopause with dignity, knowledge, and strength.
How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?
In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.
Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.
New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.
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[0:00] There's a data from United Kingdom, but it's not probably very different from the data in Switzerland or in other countries. 10% from women between 14 and 16 are leaving their work.
[0:18] Hello and welcome to the podcast from Noise to Sound. I'm Dimitrios Marinos and I'm hosting this podcast from the Hochschule Luzern. Today, I took a risk. Actually, that's the pattern of this podcast. So I will continue to discuss about a topic which is actually central for business, but mostly for women. And I think it's also a very social issue. It was for me personally very hard to find someone to speak about this topic. And I'm happy that I have a person today in this episode to set some light from the psychology perspective. So today, we're going to speak about menopause.
[1:05] Hello, Silvia Fernandez. She is a psychiatrist. She has worked in various hospitals also here in Switzerland. Currently, she has his own consulting stream where she helps companies but also individuals in, of course, various topics for mental health, but also in the menopause sphere and the workplace. So I'm hugely excited to start this conversation with you today. Hello, Dimi. Thank you for having me today. It's a pleasure being here with you. It's a pleasure for me as well, because this topic, as I said, it's not so straightforward. And when I discussed it to my circle, everyone was, oh, you're going to discuss about menopause, and are you sure about that? And this is nearly a taboo topic. But I'm happy that you come from the psychology side, not let's say as a gynecologist, not the technical side of menopause, but also the mental side of menopause. That's, I think, very important for me and for this episode.
[2:06] So the first question I would like to dive with you, I know very well menopause has, if I'm not wrong, three phases. So the pre-menopause, the menopause, and the post-menopause. Give me, let's say, a little bit, guide me through the psychological patterns of these three phases. You know, I'm a man and I'm coming from IT, so I don't know anything about it. So give me a little bit of guidance. What is it? Well, the perimenopause at the previous years...
[2:33] Beginning at the end of 30 or beginning 40, where women feel that something's changing at the body, but also at their mind. Well, I'm very interested in the topic mental impact of menopause. So, in my experience as a psychiatrist, but also as a woman, I can say that many things began to change at this time. Because it's not only the same from hormones that are being a challenge for each woman, but also the psychological part, where you have a lot of experience that you accumulated in your life.
[3:31] And also at the same time, it's a period where your parents grow elder and need more help from you, where your kids are maybe going away, they don't need as much as they did from you, and where at the time maybe with your partner are beginning a couple of problems, you have the possibility to differentiate which are your needs at this time, What do you want to, in which direction you want to go at this time? So these are the years previous to the menopause. And the menopause, it's the time when you have your last period in your life. You can define it. If you had 12 months without period. So the menopause is the last period in a woman's life. And the post-menopause is the time afterwards.
[4:40] So the most challenging time for a woman is the perimenopause time. The years before the last period occurs.
[4:51] So for me, as I consider it, for example, the difficult part for a woman would be the menopause, not the pre-menopause. But I think that it is, you're right in these terms, the pre-menopause is something, of course, that you feel they have a change, but you don't know what it is, right? Mm-hmm. You're very right. And I'm very glad for that question. You know, I am very interested in seeing relationships between mood swings, depression, anxiety, and which part of the body can have a relationship with these changes in the psychology. And for the most time of my career, I was not conscious of the importance of the hormones, but they are, they do. And at one point, I saw that I had many women who.
[5:58] Which were in their 40s, who suffered from mood swings, from anxiety, from depression. So most of my patients were in this stage of their lives.
[6:11] So I began... What age was that? Just to make it a little bit more... In their 40s. In their 40s. In their 40s, beginning 40s. Beginning 40s. So I began to ask them, what do you think? You said about a couple of problems, But what do you think about hormones? Do they play a role in your situation, in your mental situation? Maybe you can't believe it, but it's true. 100% of them said yes, indeed. So at that point, I decided to focus more and more on this thing because it's central in the healthy, in a woman's healthy. And most of them are disoriented and they need a little bit of explanations about what's happening and why are these changes happening.
[7:11] I think what is also prominent also is that the statistics, the statistics are very clear. One in 10 women stepped down from work. 25% of women in these ages freeze their career or go a step back.
[7:27] We see also in the same time depression rises and so on and so forth. Why have we made this menopause topic a taboo topic for women? What is the reason? Because it's normal, it's physical, it's natural. Why it is so hard to speak about it in the job, but also in social life? It is there. You're very right. And that's a pity. But I think the kind of efforts you are doing today, that we are doing today, that so many people are doing, are driving us in the right direction. Well, in my generation, more and more women are fundamental.
[8:13] For our society more than ever because they are not important at home but at the workplace. And we cannot allow this to ignore this problem, this healthy problem at this stage of their lives. As you said, as you mentioned, well, there's a data from United Kingdom, but it's not probably very different from the data in Switzerland or in other countries, 10% from women between 14 and 60 are leaving their work because they cannot imagine themselves keeping on there because they do not feel well physically as well as mentally.
[9:06] Yeah, of course. I mean, it's like having to run with a weight on your shoulders. It's impossible.
[9:12] Therefore, I think it's something, it's a topic that everyone a little bit have to be a little bit more sensitive about that. But what I really find interesting as well, we don't have a code to communicate this topic. I mean, you usually shut your mouth rather than speak up because it's more comfortable and easy rather than really discussing it. I remember myself when I opened to my circle that I'm going to do a podcast about this topic. Everyone was shocked and say why am i going to talk touch this point i mean it's a taboo topic and why do you bring a woman who is probably having that uh have this experience and see why she's willing to speak say it's natural and this is the right person to speak she is also psychiatrist at the same time so she knows all the package within herself as well so for me, is also very important to understand, let's say.
[10:12] The psychology of this woman. Let's say of 40-45. She's going to the pre-menopause or entering the menopause. So you mentioned moon swings is one thing, right? Fog is something that we also read very often. So this, of course, in one side is what you feel as a woman physically. And this is translated in socially as performance, deficits, right? So this woman cannot perform as she was performing before. So what does this woman expect in this time, in terms of psychology, these mood swings? Can you drive us a little bit through what is this mood swings and brain fog, let's say? That she can also relate and say, okay, this is a mood swing or this is a fog from this time.
[11:01] Yes, that's a very nice part. Well, the background of it is the estrogen level is decreasing and is moving up and down from one day to the other. So it's a little bit crazy, not only for your body, because estrogen has a main role in your body, but also in your brain. And because of these decreasing and changing levels of oestrogens and, of course, of other hormones like progesterone or oxytocin, then there's an influence in hormones of the brain, neurotransmitters, like serotonin or noradrenaline or GABA, which define your stability, your mood stability. So, imagine if you don't have a stable level of oestrogens,
[12:08] you don't have a stable state of these neurotransmitters, which causes different symptoms like mood swings.
[12:21] It's a very rapid change of your mood from irritability to anxiety to anxiety, depressive mood, but it's not a depression, it's not an anxiety disorder. So mood swings are defined by this changing in your mood, in your state, and they change from one minute, from one hour to the other.
[12:56] Very rapid. But is it triggered only from chemistry, as you mentioned, but it always triggered also from environment? Can I trigger that? Is hot day? Is the food? I don't know. Yes, yes, very nice. So the main cause is a hormonal cause. But of course, there are many factors which can influence these mood swings. Like you mentioned spicy food, because I love this example. In my own experience, I noticed that spicy food made me so changing in my mood. That's the reason why I decided to stop with this spicy food in the evening.
[13:47] But also other body symptoms which are secondary to menopause can have an influence. For instance, hot flushes. If you have constantly hot flushes, imagine you have secondary. Also more possibilities to have mood swings or if you have pain in your body a very frequent symptom in menopause are this kind of pain, generalized pain that causes of course more frequently mood swings or if you have.
[14:26] In your background, several events which you could not manage them, which are still being challenging for you, like traumas or difficult life events in one side, or in the present, a difficult situation in your partnership or in your family, of course, causes this as well. So, 70% of 10 women in this stage of their lives have mood swings, which is a lot. That's a lot. I mean, actually, I think this is a very interesting point, because we men sometimes like to generalize about the attitude of a woman, or we ask ourselves, what do women want? I think we need to understand a lot more women and i think that was for me also.
[15:28] One of the motivations for this podcast not to do it for only for women but also for men, so that we can also have in the back of our brain when we interact with a woman, that this can be something that is a weight that they carry as well right so for me another question that I have, and it is sometimes very connected to the menopause.
[15:50] So menopause is something that you experience as a woman as a change, you know, You, throughout your life, you had your period, you could have a child or two or whatever is your decision, but menopause causes a change, not only a psychological change, but a physical change. So you have to deal with you, your body not being able to carry a child anymore. So it's a change that you have to accept. And it's a turning phase for a woman. So this is another challenge on top of the menopause. So from your experience, how does women cope with that? Because it's like losing a possibility that you had before and now you don't have it anymore. So is this a challenge, a psychological challenge? Is this something that women go with it? Or is it really something that they put heavy on their psychology as well?
[16:52] Well, thank you so much. That's a very deep question. And I'm sure that many people who are listening to us understand how difficult for a woman can be saying goodbye to this possibility to become a child. And of course, it's a great challenge. Maybe it's one of the greatest challenges in one woman's life, if this woman wanted to be mother, of course. But yes, on the other side, I think the psychiatry, the psychotherapy has always a positive way of helping people in the way we try our patients to show the chances because there's always a door that's going to be open. So if you're struggling with this situation, you will probably have to accept.
[17:59] And with help of a professional, it could be very interesting. But of course, the communication with your partner, the communication with your friends, with whom you can establish a really transparent, bounding relationship. Relationship could be a very, a really help at this stage of your life. It is a hard topic, but just to end this question with a positive note,
[18:37] I have to say, I've read the statistics. Nowadays, women have between 40 and 45, they have children, the children that they, the amount of women who have a child between 40 to 45 has increased by 125 percent. And from 45 to 50, 456% globally. So it shows also that if this is a wish, it's also possible. This is a possibility.
[19:04] So, of course, it's the psychological pressure that you have. But, you know, we are in 2025. We have possibilities. And that's also worth keeping in mind. At least the numbers is what they saw at the moment. Yes. So you mentioned something really interesting, communication. And I noticed also through asking friends and my circle as well, when I was discussing about this topic, and I was trying to find a person like you also to join this Today episode.
[19:37] It is very hard to make such discussion. It's very personal. And there's two parties, actually, right? You as a partner, like the communication you have as a partner to the woman, and you as a manager, Having a woman, let's say, going through this phase into the business. As a partner, you don't know sometimes. It's the heart. And how do you bring it on the table? That's my first question. Let's say let's start from that and then we go to the business side of things, right? But communication is central. So how do we do it? How do we speak to the woman going through this phase? Well, it's a hard question in a way. But it's an easy one in a way. So I think the key point is vulnerability.
[20:33] Let's say vulnerability is a word, is a part of a relationship. It's difficult to cultivate it, but it can heal.
[20:49] Why not trying to show us more authentic, more vulnerable in a time when we need more than ever help from our surroundings, from our friends, from our partners, from our children? So you suggest that me as a woman, I'm going to make the first step to say, you know, guys, I'm going through this phase. I need your support. Well why not yeah somebody should begin it yeah.
[21:22] If I want to reach something in the thing well I should take responsibility for me thank you for saying that I think it's actually a very good message, rather than having your let's say your community, taking the hard pill and come to you and say you know hey are you going through this phase because it's very very hard to do so Well, it's difficult for the whole of us. Also, for me, it's difficult talking about difficult topics in my life, but once you tried it, the second time you do it, it's not as difficult as the first time, and it's magic. It's liberating, I would say. It's liberating, yeah. And of course, if you have a partner which also supports on that, then I think… Both of you will find it magic if you communicate with each other in a basis of confidence, in a basis of transparency, of love.
[22:30] And you mentioned before something about workplace, how menopause influences at the workplace. and the same study from British Menopausal Society you can read, how menopause influences at this part of relationships. Not only women, but their partners feel alone at this part. They don't know how to communicate. They don't know what's going on. It's obvious to me, like as a man, I mean, a woman can go to the gynecologist directly or it can go to the psychiatrist directly. A man has no, I mean, a man alone cannot go to a gynecologist and say,
[23:15] you know what, my partnering or whatever, and I get some questions, it's not working like that. So it is, I mean, as a man, if you don't have the guidance or the openness from the partner, you are lost. Yes, yes. You can only support, let's say, but you don't know what's happening. Yeah. But this part, the psychoeducation, that's to say, to know what's happening in the mind of the other person, it's central to understand, to support.
[23:51] Why not? You said something, visiting a gynecologist, why not? Alone. Alone. Well, I don't know, alone.
[24:01] That's what I mean. You cannot go alone as a man in a check-in. I want to discuss about menopause because XY has perhaps. But you have to go at least together. Yes, yes, of course. But it's not so often that men go with their partners to the gynecologist. Well, it could be a very interesting thing to do. In my work as a psychiatrist, I do insist that planners come and visit me with my patients. Of course, that's very necessary. And you talked about workplace, the same thing, with the bosses coming and having, let's talk open, if the patient wants, of course. Yeah, of course. To talk about a problem so that we can find together a solution.
[25:02] It's possible. But now I'm going back a little bit on the workplace. So I was thinking very loud now. You are a woman. You strived all your career life to reach a level. I mean, you don't reach a level. You're 30s, you reach a level. You're 40s. You know, you have done a lot. You have shown the world you can do things. And you're 40. and you've lit a level in your job which you start feeling that you have achieved things right so you're 40-40 plus.
[25:31] That's the average, at least. So, and now that you have reached this level, your body starts fighting you, right? So you start with your hormones go ups and down, you have your mood swings, you have the fog, the brain fog. And that's, of course, for all the rest who doesn't know what happens to you, it's your performance going down. So everyone starts asking, oh, is he the right person for the position? Now, think about it. If the company is not very diverse, First, most probably you have a man, or you can also have a woman. We have seen also studies that women sometimes are a little bit more bigger blockers sometimes for women as well. Socially acceptable women in terms of attractiveness.
[26:17] So how does this person, this supervisor, can manage such things? I mean, if you are a man and go to the woman and say, are you going through a hard phase of your menopause? Most probably you're going to land in HR with the problem and most probably you're going to lose your job. Although you try to help. The same happens for a woman, but it's a little bit more understandable, woman to woman.
[26:38] So as a man, you wouldn't take the risk because you also try to achieve things. So what do we do? I mean, how do you manage that? Or do we leave it happen and then we have a self-fulfilling prophecy that the woman is not capable, although she is? Well, you talk about a challenge, a challenging situation, many responses, many possibilities, but a no-go. Doing nothing at all, saying nothing at all. But this is what happens, actually, right? So no one is talking about it. I mean, there's so many women between 40 and 50 in the jobs, but no one really has a measure about that. Yes. That's something. In the last month, I had a couple of conversations with HR people,
[27:27] and some of them said to me they don't know this problem in their enterprise. Of course, no one. And therefore, I'm much more astonished because HR and human resources are mainly populated from women. I mean, it's known. Marketing and HR has a bigger amount of women as the other sectors. But do you know how many women think about leaving their job at this time?
[28:01] 25%. So, it's not possible to be blind. It's not possible not to have heard something. But of course, most of women who have difficulties in their jobs because of menopause, talk to other women. So that's not a solution in this case. They hesitate a lot talking to their bosses. I was wondering, why does it happen in our world?
[28:34] Yeah, well, I think it's exactly what you mentioned before. Or when you have achieved something in a business, I mean, thinking again, this woman, 40 to 50, achieved something, you don't want to show vulnerability, you want to be strong, right? You want to show that you deserve this position, you want to deserve more than this position, actually, right? So you're not going to play with that. And this is just, I mean,
[28:57] socially as well, it's like having a scratch and go to your boss and say, you know what, from now on, I'll have a little bit of ups and downs because this happens to me. And you have to expect that. So, and you don't know how the others should react as well, right? At the end of the day, as you mentioned, this doesn't land anywhere. It's just a discussion between two women in the job who are actually comforting each other. But at the end of the day, Nothing happens. Nothing happens. How could something happen if you open yourself, if you mention what's happening to you? Because there are solutions. There are solutions from the gynecologist's point of view, but of course from the psychiatrist's point of view. There are methods, there are treatments which can alleviate the symptomatic, which can let you know how to cope with these symptoms.
[29:56] And of course, there's also always a possibility trying to ameliorate the way you communicate about your difficulties, about your challenges. Yeah, it is. And you said, excuse me, but you said showing your vulnerability is not the right way in the real world. Well, I've worked with managers who live their own crisis.
[30:22] And that's very interesting to see how they understand that indeed showing your vulnerability in the right place at the right time does help you also achieving your scores. So, why not imagine that it could happen in our world, not only in our family, with our friends, but also in our workplace?
[31:00] We can communicate openly so that we can find a solution that for both of us will work. Yeah. It takes, though, an open-minded boss or supervisor to feel that it's nice to show vulnerability because then you can achieve more. I mean, you're a human. It takes a lot of education for bosses right now, and it's not there, like today, at least. I mean, and this is what you do while you work. And therefore, I really appreciate that you're doing it because people can, and hopefully, even more reach out from HR or from the line of business to see, hey, how can I make sure that my employee who's going through this phase, can have the maximum I can support her. Yes, and to have the maximum, you have to be conscious that menopause happens to 100% of women.
[31:54] And it's not her problem. It's not their problem. It's not women's problem. It's not a problem, first of all. It is like that. It's a reality. It's a part of life. You cannot deny it. You can only try yourself. To find a solution and communicate, be open about this thing can only be beneficial for all of us. Yeah, for sure. Because otherwise it could be a social issue. And nobody should suffer about menopause because there are so many possibilities. I mean, I like exactly this message because you're not alone. I mean, now you have menopause, you should not shut yourself. There is gynecologist, there are psychiatrists, and you have solutions. It's not all medical. I mean, sometimes you just need someone to put you in the right place.
[32:49] And I think this can happen. But in our discussion so far, we had a little bit. We went through what is menopause and the personal level. We speak about work. And I have a last couple of questions, which I think is also interesting. So women change their... I mean, we talk about this change, but the sexuality is also something. I mean, women are like a flower sometimes. So at this time, not only your mindset change and you're going through the things.
[33:22] Your mood swings, is sexuality also, I mean, the emails you have for yourself, I'm not talking about the erotic itself, but the sexuality itself, also get suppressed during the menopause?
[33:40] And how do women cope with that? Because, of course, first of all, the possibility that you lose your ability to give birth is one thing. But what happens to your sexuality? So, do you know something? I find really interesting trying to define which language you use with yourself. And probably many of us are very critical with ourselves. Mostly because we don't find so interesting the changes we are going through. Most of us are gaining some weight.
[34:28] Most of us are having changes in our skin, in our hair. So there are challenges, of course. And at this time, trying to define, trying to identify constructive things, Words, lovely words, in this difficult moment could help us to redefine ourselves in a way which we can act with ourselves with more love, with more acceptance. Yes, and trying to redefine, to identify which is for us the sexuality or which is for us a sexy body could be a nice goal to reach. It's not only about crying about what it was in the past, but trying to admire the new figure.
[35:43] The new characteristics in the body, in the mind of a woman happens at these times, which is fantastic. It's part of life. Part of life, as I mentioned.
[35:56] We can only welcome. Yes. We are alive. Yes. Absolutely, I'm fully with you. And actually, if I try to understand what you said now, it's take care how you talk to yourself, right? So really be conscious. What words are you using? How you talk to yourself? Try to pamper yourself a little bit when you're in this situation. It helps in these terms. As you mentioned, appreciate what happened in the past, how it was in the past, and also use it as foundation for the new change that is coming. Yes, of course. Trying to honor your past, your present, and the future. It's a good word. I like it. I try to honor this because it's like that. I mean, women, you are an amazing mechanism and I think nature have given you all the intelligence they could give to a creature, give it to a woman. So I think it's really no doubt that things like that happen to women because I think you can manage and I think we as men would have a little bit more problems managing that.
[36:57] Well, but it's not a problem from women, as we said. It's a problem. It's a stage of life more than a problem for women, but it has implications in their partners, in the workplace, in the society.
[37:14] Wrapping it up right now, I would like to ask you, what would you suggest to this young woman, 40 plus, who's having the, let's say, the lift to walk through the menopause, pre-menopause, menopause and post-menopause phase? What would you suggest here?
[37:32] As I was 40, 10 years ago, well, I thought it would never happen to me. And it already began to happen without being conscious of it. So I think... It's necessary to read about it, to hear about it, and not to be knocked at the door, at your door, when you're 50, 51, and almost it's over, it's too late. But trying to see it before it comes. But because at this time in the premenopause, you can still try to prepare yourself for what is coming. If we are talking about mood swings, one thing, one strategy that can reduce these mood swings is trying to make review of your life. If you have a back with a lot of events which are hurting you, maybe it's time to work on it so that you can cope with the next years with more light-likeness. Yeah, for sure.
[38:54] I mean, it's, I think, awareness and at least, as you understood.
[38:58] Raise this question to yourself when you're 40 plus. Hey, can this be a premium and post case? Yes or no? It doesn't cost you anything. Just raise your question and perhaps makes you at some point aware. Yeah, it is or search about it. So.
[39:12] Silvia, I cannot thank you more for being here today, setting some light to a topic which actually started to be a taboo, and I hope it will not be anymore, or at least I hope we just contributed somehow that this topic is not going to be a taboo anymore. So really thank you about that a lot. Thank you a lot to you, because you opened this door, and I am very sure that it helps a lot. People who are in their 30s, 40s, and maybe heard for the first time about it, and who can explain their mothers, their sisters about it. And yes, we are all on the same boat. So it could be a great thing. I fully agree, and I hope so, that there's this social shift, and this becomes a little bit more mainstream as it is but so thank you very much sylvia once again for for being before being here today uh you guys that you have listened this um this episode you can find uh sylvia also she's actually very active in linkedin as well she's doing workshops uh it's not about advertising but i think i don't usually do it but i think in this particular case i think it's relevant.
[40:32] To have at least someone that you can ask and at least if she cannot help you directly, guide you, who can help you and how can you be helped. So from my side, once again, thank you for listening to us. Please follow our channel as well either in your favorite platform, YouTube, Spotify, whatever it is, but also in LinkedIn. I will try to post some interesting stories as I usually do. And I really love to hear and read your feedback as you occasionally do as well. So really thank you very, very much about that. So I will see you in the next episode and until then, I wish everyone of you take care, have fun and be healthy. See you at the next episode.
