From Noise to Sound
How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?
In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.
Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.
New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.
From Noise to Sound
# Andrea Wucher: From Construction Sites to Boardrooms – A Journey of Bold Decisions
This episode features Andrea Wucher, a dynamic multi-manager and member of several board of directors across industries. We delve into her unique approach to leadership and the responsibilities she shoulders, not just for her companies and employees, but for their families and futures. Her commitment stems from a deep sense of duty, illustrated by her belief that true management means preparing others to thrive independently, ensuring that the company can function smoothly in her absence.
Andrea discusses her diverse career, spanning construction, IT, and aviation, and how her driving force lies in daily learning and collaboration. She shares her passion for making swift decisions in the often male-dominated construction sector, emphasizing the importance of responsibility as both a pleasure and a challenge. Her experience has taught her that leadership is about empowering teams, promoting a culture where employees can flourish, and that the real satisfaction comes from seeing tangible results from collaborative efforts.
Our conversation also highlights Andrea's distinctive qualities when it comes to workforce management. She emphasizes her philosophy of "hire for attitude, train for skills," and explains how this approach varies slightly between fields like IT and construction, where communication and problem-solving are paramount. Andrea shares anecdotes from her career, illustrating her willingness to embrace challenges and how she navigates the fast-paced decisions required in construction, such as the complexities faced during the ambitious Bern Messe project.
The discussion touches on the challenges and dynamics of being a woman in leadership roles, particularly in sectors where female representation is scarce. Andrea candidly shares her experiences of overcoming initial skepticism and establishing her authority, while also advocating for hiring based on merit rather than gender. She believes that the qualities of a good leader transcend gender and that successful leadership is about accountability, approachability, and decisiveness.
As she reflects on past projects and the lessons learned, Andrea expresses a desire to continue pushing boundaries and growing her businesses. Her dedication to constructive criticism and continuous improvement remains a cornerstone of her leadership style. The episode concludes with insights on her future aspirations and her thoughts on embracing change, thereby underscoring her lifelong commitment to p
How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?
In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.
Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.
New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.
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[0:01] I not only take the responsibility for my companies and my employees, I also take the responsibilities for their families, take the responsibility for the education of their kids, the responsibility that they can go.
[0:15] Hello and welcome on the podcast from Noise to Sound. I'm Dimitrios Marinos, your host from HSLU. And today I have a very special guest. She is a multi-manager. She's in the board of directors of multiple companies and she has her own comments as well that she's running in parallel. This is like a woman Victorinox, I would say. She's really successful in this terms, is a woman that actually has a lot of power. I knew her from my beginnings when I started being an entrepreneur and really like the way she operates and has leadership. So it's for me a pleasure to have you today at our podcast.
[0:58] Music.
[1:05] Hello, Andrea Wucher. Nice to have you here. Hello, Demi. Thanks for having me here. It's a pleasure on my side, definitely. I'm very happy to be here and it was overwhelming when you called me and asked me to be guesting your podcast. Oh, thank you. Thank you for accepting that, actually, because I know you are doing a lot of things. So your calendar is packed and I was more than happy to see you again and in exchange, of course. So I want us just to, first of all, ask you, I mean, you're doing a lot of things.
[1:34] You're in construction. You have done an IT background. You have done a lot.
[1:39] So what actually is motivating you today in your daily business? I mean, based on your background and your experience, what's your driving force when you wake up? My driving force, waking up is difficult. It's not my driving force, but my driving force during the day is that I can learn every day something new. That I met astonishing people, that I have the possibility to work with them and to see things growing. For example, when you're in construction, you build buildings, you see the result of your work. We both know in IT, you don't see the results sometimes. You know at the end of the week that you're tired, but you don't know why. And in construction business, you see what you have done with your team, with the other people around. You can't do something on your own. You're always working in a team, and that's a driving force in my life. And I like to make decisions. and that's one of my.
[2:36] Main power source that I can bring companies forward, that I can make decisions, that I can raise the potential of people, and that's pushing me forward every day. That's what I mentioned before. If I wished for me to have a managerian, that would be Andrea. And that was the reason when I said that was, I know you take decisions. You're a person who wants to see things move forward, actually.
[3:07] And you're not someone who really wants to discuss things and discuss things until the time is mature. But this comes with a lot of responsibility. It's not something that's, okay, you are in a manager position, you can take a decision that's not so easy said. It's easy said, but it's difficult to swallow. So how do you, I mean, you're in construction business. It's a very manly domain.
[3:31] So how do you take decisions as you like, as you mentioned, but also at the same time assume responsibility in such a domain?
[3:40] You know, responsibility, it's a gift and a pleasure to have the possibility to take responsibility. And not only take the responsibility for my companies and my employees, I also take the responsibilities for their families. Take the responsibility for the education of their kids, the responsibility that they can go to holidays, for example, with their family. That that's the only reason why you try to do everything possible every day because in my companies you know all my employees can run the company on their own if i'm not there for two or three weeks otherwise i would have done something definitely wrong but we meet out our employees i can't run the business for five minutes you have to keep that always in your mind as a manager that you're not the main person in the company. You're the person who is doing the company, who is taking decision, who is taking responsibility. And at the end, if it goes wrong, you stand there and say, yeah, it was wrong. It was my decision. I take responsibility. If it's a success, it's great. You're part of the party and you can celebrate, but most of the time you just take the responsibility and don't know if it was the right decision or the wrong decision because you have a certain amount of information available at the moment when you take the decision and you just do your best every day.
[5:01] So that's about responsibility. I like responsibility. I love responsibility. I was trained when I was very young to take a lot of responsibility as an air traffic controller.
[5:11] So it's kind of in my DNA. So that's not the problem. And the construction business, yes, very interesting.
[5:18] That's a strange part as well. Yeah, that's a strange part. Probably have to go back into my early years as a young girl. I was raised in a family where my father was an entrepreneur as well. He had a car workshop, so I was around technical issues all the day. I grew up with him and from day one I was always attracted by Technic. I was in the aviation industry, I was in the energy industry and sometimes I ended up in the construction business. Sometimes I wonder how I ended up there because I have no construction education background. I'm not an engineer at all. I come from the IT business as you know. But the construction is, I like the construction because you have to take decisions every day. Or latest next day, you can't wait for three weeks or say, I have to think it over, I have to write a concept, I have to talk with different people about it. You have to decide today or tomorrow because you can't stop a construction site for weeks or months until you made up your mind. That's actually, now you have convinced me to move from IT to construction.
[6:30] But what I wanted to say is you mentioned something very interesting to me. You see a lot of companies, you manage a lot of companies at the same time. So you said something very important.
[6:40] You can leave for three weeks and the company can run, the people can run. So what are the qualities or the criteria that you have as a manager in when you pick people? What do you search for in people? And is it different in construction.
[6:56] And in IT or the other businesses that you were before, or is it the same quality that you search everywhere? I think first is hire for attitude, train for skills. Definitely. Because if you want to learn something, I can teach you everything you want. But your attitude, your personality, I can't change. I have to live with it and have to work in the company. I think the difference between construction and IT is in the IT business, I can leave you somewhere in the background and you program your code and nobody ever sees you and nobody ever has to talk to you. So that's not so difficult. On the construction, you're on site. You're working with other companies together. You work with the owner of the building, for example, the future building. You work as a project manager. And therefore, you need also a lot of communication skills and competence. You have to manage yourself. You have to manage the construction site on your own. There's nobody next to you you can ask, how should I do it? You have to make up your mind. You have to think yourself, how do I solve this problem? How do I solve this issue? You have different nationalities. You have different ages on the construction site. So therefore, the skill set, for example, for a project manager on construction is more or less the same than you have as a manager in a smaller company.
[8:21] Now you mentioned also as well i mean the changes that you have done in your career i mean usually a, usually makes one or none. And then you start it. I mean, I can understand where you're coming from, your roots.
[8:35] Let's say you said your father was a mechanical, you had a garage, let's say. And so you see someone working with his hands. That's your first images that you take when you grow up. And then you come to aviation, and then you go into IT, and then I'm sure perhaps I'm missing something in between, and then you end up somehow in construction.
[8:56] So how do you manage to make those changes in your career? And still, I mean, you were successful in every segment. I mean, I know you're from IT. You were also successful in sales, in bringing out new value to the customers. I mean, how do you do this change? When do you decide to make this change? When is the inflection point where you say, and now I'm changing?
[9:18] I had a lot of luck in my life, definitely. It's also you need luck also in your career and in your life. And for example, the nicest change was from IT to energy. I was in the job interview and they asked me if I want to start in the energy company, big energy company in Switzerland, in the international sales business, which was also the trading department, to build up some subsidiaries in Germany, in France and in Italy. And I told them, look, I know quite a lot about sales. I know quite a lot about IT. I know quite a lot about back-end systems, but I cannot explain you the difference between kilowatt and kilowatt hours. No chance, but I can learn it. And that was the key. And I think it's always when I got an opportunity to get into something new, I always ask myself, why not? I never ask myself why. And this why not brought me to 11 different industries, which I worked indirectly or for IT in it. And this background is priceless, definitely.
[10:32] And it also needs a lot of energy because you always start from scratch. That's what I mean with change. It needs energy, not only one time to make it. We need 11. Yeah, you always start from scratch. You come in a company and you're the one who knows nothing about it. You just bring your experience with you. You bring your curiosity with you. And hope that you can really fast and really easy get into the stuff. Know how the company works. How the business runs. So that you can bring in value to this company. But you're always the one who knows nothing at the first day. And either you hate it or you like it. I like it. I think that's also... Therefore, I'm a little bit astonished that you mentioned about luck. Because I think...
[11:23] Luck is when preparation meets someone so you were prepared to to find the luck
[11:28] i mean you were successful in a prior business so you you're not starting from zero let's say of course the segment is new so you have to learn the specificities but you were experienced you were successful before 90 you were successful in aviation and so on so forth so, luck it meets you some way half the way around right so it's not always there but for me it's It's also interesting how you put your ego back. I mean, you were successful in the segment, and then you know what? I have enough for my IT, for example. I'm going to energy, for example. So how do you leave something that you know you're good and you know you're successful, and you go to somewhere and say, I might completely fail? I mean, the chances are there. Yeah. Yeah, the chances are always there. It's a very nice definition of luck. It's really not something.
[12:21] You know, the thing is, when you go into something new, you can grow. You can never lose in life. You can grow or you learn something or you can win, but you never lose. And yeah, there was always the potential that I fail, that I can't succeed in a certain business or in a certain position. But also then you have learned something that you're at the wrong place. If you never try out new things, you're stuck in the old business, you're stuck in the old company.
[12:52] One of the issues with my life and my personality is that I get bored after a certain time. I've changed jobs every two, three, four years. And normally people say, but come on, the rest is in your CV. What is it? And normally you come to me if it's difficult. If you're completely smashed or you have to build something from scratch. You don't come to me in the last country we have a nice department here everything runs fine just keep it going like this now i'm the wrong person you know i drive you nuts and everybody around me as well so as i get bored after two or three years i have to look out for something new, and that's why change is so easy for me because everything new everything that i've never done before everything i think that's a challenge to me it's a chance and opportunity yeah i mean at At the end of the day, you know, there's two schools today. There's the school that say, you need to stay longer. I mean, sow your value by a long time. And then there's another school that say, you know what, after three, four years, turn over.
[13:57] And I'm also on the second side when I think, you know, after three, four years, as soon as your powers and your motivation gives, you have to change. You have to get out of the comfortable zone and push forward.
[14:09] So for me, it's also interesting. I mean, you're a woman, a powerful woman, and you have characteristics that I personally would appreciate a lot in a manager. You are direct, very direct. You are very fair on the other side in the same time. So it's not the easiest sometimes to manage with a lot of people.
[14:28] But I think it's very much appreciated in construction because people are straight and they want to do things fast. It's not like the other segments. So, you know, how easy or difficult or special is to be a woman in construction? That's something that you don't very often meet. I mean, we meet a lot of good leadership women in finance, in IT, let's say, in things that somehow you've grown in there with your studies. But in construction, it's always strange. Yeah, it's strange, but I think it's the easiest part of it to be a woman in construction. You know, you always have this moment of surprise when you're facing somebody else, another manager of another company, the construction owner and other building owner. There was, oh, you're the boss. And say, yeah, I'm the boss. And that's the other people, the other person is curious about how you react in this situation. They also challenge you from time to time. And that's what you said. I'm direct. I tell you what I think about it.
[15:33] Straightforward. So you always know what I'm thinking about you, what I think about the business, what's my position and what is not my position. If you're in the middle of a discussion with me, it can be very disaggregable. It can be very bad, you know, and feeling bad. And I had discussions where the other one said, I have enough. I leave the room. I don't discuss with you anymore. Come on, sit down. It's okay. We'll find a solution. But they always came back and said, look, you took a decision. You took responsibility.
[16:05] When you said yes, it was yes, and it was not no the next day. So you were reliable. you were accountable and that was in the end the better part to deal with you than if you would have played games for example i never play games i hate people playing games yeah and actually you know today we all want to move a little bit forward with the business whatever sector you are and if you play games the only thing you win at the end is toxicity so nothing moves on so i think i mean i know you in this part this will be something you would not tolerate, I mean, I wouldn't like to be in the same room anyway. Oh, come on. I would like to be, but just to look.
[16:50] But what I wanted to say is, at the same time, you are in construction at this time, and this is something, of course, booming, especially in Switzerland as well. We know real estate and construction is something that's really driving the economy as well. One of your current projects that actually, shortly before it's finalized. It's Messe in Bern, which is actually a huge thing for Bern as a city,
[17:14] but also I think for Switzerland as well. So this is a mega project, not something like that you have 10 times in the same time in the same country. So just cherry pick one to I would say spicy stories that, I mean, for such big project could be really, really interesting. Because people see at the end of the day, oh, a nice project that ended in time, but no one sees what had happened before in between. So I would like to share some spicy stories in between that would be funny, let's say, on this context. Yeah, definitely. It's a pleasure.
[17:49] First of all, it started, I was chairman number four of this project. So I burned three chairmen before. So most of the people will say, okay, let's go and run. I said, oh, interesting. Give it to me, give it to me. I take things when they're difficult and everybody else says it's impossible to build it in two years. We had 474 days to build the building. It's 95 weeks. During due winters with a lot of fares around. We had running fares around the whole two years. And I had no plan B. I guess in two years you cannot have a plan B. I mean, it's impossible. Yeah, you know, you have this plan A, the 25th of April is the opening of the Baird, the biggest fair in Baird, and the building has to be completed and finished then and has to be operational, and part of the fair is in this building.
[18:51] And then there's, you said before, I have no ego. In this case, I have a very big ego because I wanted to prove that it is possible. And then you give all the energy in there. Spicy story is that first I had two project managers on the project. At the end, I think we were about six project managers because it summed up that it is so much work. We have 740 kilometers of cables in this building. A funny story is we have 428 small tables ordered. Nobody can tell me why it is 421 I didn't found out until today but who cares if there were 421 tables then we give them 421 tables.
[19:41] And we had 117 companies working in this building for this building all around and you have to manage them you have the project managers from a very renowned company in Switzerland from Hares we had a very good understanding but I had a budget of 108 millions tight it's very tight it was once 125 and then we strapped it down to 108 and you have a the user of the building afterwards is bn expo yeah and they, rent the building from me and they said okay we want to have this and we need this one and there we need some more technique and then we need more rigging and then we need some more I hey stop it I don't have the money for it. Either you pay it yourself, I can pay it. I have no money for it. And that's the daily discussion you have in every project meeting and everywhere. And at the end, you're talking about colors on the wall. And you say, come on. You don't have the time for the... I don't care if it's blue or pink or green. And then you say, okay, sit down, which color we take. Yeah, it's okay. And one week before I took over the building, I was running through the stairways.
[20:58] And I saw two different colors in the hall. I said, why do we have two different colors? No, it's the same color. It's not different colors. No, it's two different colors. And we measured the color and the color code and it was two different colors. So one week before we handed over the building, I said, read on the floor. Because wrong color. I would assume that this color was not that major difference, but your eyes cut it. Yeah, my eyes cut it and I would always see it. And if I can see it, the other ones can see it as well. And there's the ego again. I said, no, no, no. I don't have anybody in this building who's going through the building who said, Andrea, didn't you see that there are two different colors?
[21:39] No way. No, I understand. I understand. I mean, it's a huge, it's a mega project. And as I mentioned, this project is not something you come across, you know, two, three times in your life. But I'm curious, was it the most exciting project in your life?
[21:55] Difficult question. It's an honor to build a fest house. It was definitely an honor because it's important for Bern, for the city of Bern, for the canton of Bern, and for the country. It's definitely an honor and left me speechless in the first few days as I heard that I should do it. The biggest project in my life. One of the biggest, the most exciting. It can be something small, it doesn't matter. Something that you say, you know, it's been so many years or it's this one or whatever, it doesn't matter. that is really still in my heart somehow for some specific reason. It doesn't have to be, you know. The most exciting thing was when I left as CEO from Weissendappetito and I stood there and said, what shall I do now? A lot of headhunters were calling. What job would you like? Which CEO role? Which company? I said, no, I need to do something different. I have to be entrepreneur again and I have to build something from scratch. It took me some years until I found the right business partner for it and the right industry for it. So bought the company in Austria, bought the company in Slovakia.
[23:06] Working in another country where you're thinking of more or less the same culture, forget it. Forget it. Business in Austria is completely different than in Switzerland, and Slovakia is another number, definitely, again. And they're also, it's the same, you know, it's always the same,
[23:23] The same principle is starting from scratch. Starting from scratch, leaving the comfort zone. I feel absolutely nervous in the comfort zone. I don't feel comfortable in the comfort zone. Really? No, definitely. It makes me so nervous when I feel that I'm sitting in the comfort zone. I need to have the challenge around. But is it because of the challenge or you think now I have no value because I'm comfortable? No, no. It's the psychological. It's only the challenge. It's the challenge. It's only the challenge. You know, I can also say, Andrea, you constantly have to prove yourself. It can be. Yeah, I don't know. You prove it in yourself because the market knows. I mean, it's not about anyone else. But that was exciting to start from scratch with slightly over 50, building up your own company with a construction company in Austria, a construction company in Slovakia, which is very successful. Nobody was waiting for me. out there, you know, we bought the company, a business partner, bought the company, said in front of 65 people, said, hi, I'm Andrea, I'm your new owner.
[24:33] Knowing without you, it will never work. Without me, you haven't waited. There was nobody waiting for me. Yeah. But I think that was exciting. I think. In the early years when I was starting with my own company, and then you mentioned once entrepreneur, I was an entrepreneur, I kept it in my mind, it's in a safe place. And I think experiencing you, it's exactly what drives you because as an entrepreneur, you dive always in the unknown. Either it would be a financial issue, it would be a project, whatever it is, it's always a talent. It's not a walk in the park in any way. So I can imagine being one of the 65 people seeing a woman, a Swiss woman in front of me in Austria and saying, I'm your new owner, I would say this is first April joke for sure.
[25:19] But I think we as a man on the other side, when you have such energetic,
[25:25] dynamic woman on the leads, I think sometimes you gain confidence very fast. I mean, faster than men. We men sometimes challenge ourselves when you have a manager. But if you believe in a woman who is more nurturing in these terms, actually, you have a good mix of this company is going to be fine. Yes. The big advantage when you're a woman in a man business, you're no competition. Definitely not. It's a good view, actually. I haven't even thought about it. I'm not the competitor of you because, you know, we are men, we are a woman, easy go. You don't feel like competition next to you. and same to me and that makes things a lot easier because we can work together based on the subject, for the project whatever and not for our egos and for everything else, and they call me for example my employees in Austria don't call me Andrea, They always call me Chefin. Really? Yeah. Making a joke of, oh, can you ask Chefin about it?
[26:32] I said, yeah, it's nice. We have a good laugh about it and that's okay. But they accepted it, that there's a woman as a Chefin. And one certain employer said, look, I had somebody who was older than me, who was my boss. Somebody younger. I had a doctor as my boss. And I have a woman as a boss. Who cares? Who cares? Who cares? it's not it's not about the packaging it's about the content it's actually good that you see it this way it's not always like that in the market and i want to take you a little bit back on that i mean right now we see it's a huge phase in the market um the the committees of inclusion diversity has been everywhere out i mean big companies have started smaller is
[27:13] also following as well um i know you have a very specific point i mean skills count it doesn't have to be about gender and i fully agree with you on that uh nonetheless it's it's really a little bit vulgar the way it happens right now i just have a feeling but i mean i would like first to ask you have you in your career felt intimidated somehow as a woman i mean not in construction which could happen let's say but in it we were in different 11 different sectors and what is your position let's say what do you think about now that every all these committees has just gone out it's gonna Do you think women are going to be a profit from the situation, not? Or what do you think could be the difficulties?
[27:58] I think on one side you profit as a woman because, you know, I always ask when somebody asks me, what do you think about quotas? Would you like to be a quota man, say it in this way? No, definitely not. And a quota for a woman, I think it's extremely bad. Because sometimes you get women hired into jobs and onto positions where they don't have the skills for it. But they need a woman. Otherwise, you get smashed by your shareholders, by your boards, whatever. So you have to have a woman in a certain position. If she's the right person or not, who cares? And that's not very good for women because she will fail, definitely. And it gives everybody the excuse, we have tried it, and it doesn't work. So not really clever.
[28:47] So i think if you i never had a problem as a woman when i said i want to have this position i want to get in that position i want to have access to a certain circle which somebody said no you're a woman you can't yeah it's if you want to have something you have to fight for it and you have to pay the price for it you know you just can't stand there and say i would like to be a CEO, I'm a woman, so please. It doesn't work. You have to fight for it, you have to educate yourself, you have to go to the education programs, you have to really stand your men, in front of a board and say you're looking. I had an election in a board of you.
[29:30] Months ago there were about 10 people they were interviewing i had my interview and they called me the afternoon and said yeah um you will be the new board member so wow that was fast and what about the other 10s oh we just canceled the interviews i said yeah because i wanted this position i went in there and said i'm your man yeah yeah i think yeah yeah well it's actually Sometimes Tango runs fast, but probably it's what is correct also. I mean, this masculine character of acting as a woman is also valid. I mean, when you're on the board, you have to take decisions. Usually it used to be historically a man's part, but it is like that in the business. So I think for me, it's also a part of personality. I mean, no one can,
[30:24] I mean, just be a pretty face as a woman in a board doesn't cut it anymore, or a CEO as a pretty face doesn't cut it. You have to have a personality, and that's the most important, because that also characterizes the business as well. You are the face of the business, and that's important.
[30:39] But I'm still, I don't know what is, I mean, you've seen, you are in a lot of boards, you know other boards as well. I think Switzerland is doing very well in these terms. I mean, there was a shift the last five years. A lot of skilled women are in good positions. And I think we see a lot of companies going, progressing because of women further. What's your take on that? I mean, do you feel, let's say, that the women characteristics in the leadership part actually giving this additive touch to Swiss companies that was not there before?
[31:16] Smaller companies, I think, you know, if you look at smaller companies, 94% of the companies in Switzerland are small and medium business. Yes. And in small and medium business, you have…, A CEO, probably a finance guy, that's it with management. I can't have five members of the management circle where I have at least two women. It really doesn't work because they don't have so many positions. In the board where you have five, six, seven people, yeah, you can say we have two or three or four women. Yeah, if the skills we needed are delivered by these women. If we need finance skills and we have a great finance lady, perfect. Take it. Also there, hire for attitude, train for skills. And don't hire for gender. It doesn't help. It doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help anybody.
[32:15] I once said when I was first coming into construction business, they asked me how was it and how did it felt. I said, look, everybody who faced me the first time said, well, woman, how do I handle it? Because you have no training set, for example, to handle a woman CEO. That's not your fault. That's not my fault. It's just history. It's history, yeah. And give the opposite to the other person the time and the possibility to work. Get to know each other to learn how to handle it if we argue with each other i don't start crying don't worry or but you start crying i don't know.
[32:59] No i don't start crying i don't get emotional whatever it's just the same thing it's just a different packaging but the rest is all the same and it's uh the main thing or the main i think we have a lot to do and quite enough to do to work for our companies and to get results for our companies and navigating some difficult times at the moment and the skill set is uh relevant and the personality is relevant and uh if it's women or men i don't care sure sure i think i think this should be relevant and i think at least we have a good setup in the society that actually supports that
[33:35] now you have um six seven boards uh mandates you have your own companies your week should be a mess and you have i know you you told me also before you have six at least six six days a week and then you take sunday like in the bible you know god gave sunday to rest and then you take sunday to rest um but i mean this has happened week after week after week where do you recharge how do you find the energy to i mean of course you do tasks that you like you can be picky but nevertheless you're human still yeah still human um if i can sleep asleep sleep a lot, Sunday I can sleep until 10 o'clock in the morning no problem, 10 hours in a row.
[34:18] I'm also from time to time at 6 o'clock in the morning on the golf course, me, my own the animals around, the green keepers around, that's our golf course and playing a round of golf 18 holes just for me and myself, I like to spend time on my own because I'm together with a lot of people I discuss a lot with people I've argued, a lot with people so I enjoy being on my own for example driving 8 hours through the night in my car from Switzerland to Austria and You can think about your issues, you can listen to music, I can recharge in these hours.
[34:59] I was meditating since 25 years, so if I really feel uncomfortable in a situation, or if I have to write a piece of paper and I have no idea what to write, it happens. I'm getting nervous, I'm getting stressed, whatever, take 10 minutes, meditate down, focus again, restart. And I think you have to have your instruments how to handle this. I like to take my holidays. I always take my holidays and never skip holidays.
[35:33] Because once Leah Coca said… No phone? No phone in holidays? I phone and laptop always. I can't live without it. But it's not a burden, you know, because it's choice then. I say, I want to check my emails. We'll know what's running. And also, I check my emails, read my emails, close the laptop, and it's over. It's private life again. Business is gone. Leah Kocka once said to one of his managers who asked him if he got promoted because he was one of the most loyal employees he had. He never takes holidays and whatever. I said, Leah Kocka, how can I promote you to manage a company in this size if you're not even capable of taking and organizing four weeks of holidays on your own? That's valid. That's definitely a valid point. Sure. You have... If you want to run your business on a high level, if you have a packed business, if you want to do multiple things parallel, you have to manage yourself as well.
[36:34] You have to be in good shape. Your body has to work. I was never sick in the last winter when everybody was sick. You have to manage your body. You have to manage your health. You have to manage your thoughts and your well-being. And then it's possible. Otherwise, it's not possible. You have to manage yourself as well. Just for the record, I wanted to say that. I wanted to say from the beginning of this podcast, I mean, Andrea has the longest tee shot in golf, in the longest hole, let's say, in golf course in Switzerland. I mean, only Andrea can have. Just to give you just a spot, who is actually Andrea? But I just want to ask you a last question.
[37:14] Now, you know yourself, you know your history. Usually, based on your history, you can forecast a little bit the future. So, I mean, it's a little bit cliche, but when is the next change of Andrea?
[37:28] When is perhaps bad, but let's say, could you forecast, could you see a change in the next years for Andrea as well? Yeah, normally people would say Andrea is now approaching 60 in a few years. So what do you think about retirement? I can't imagine retirement. I couldn't imagine you either. Definitely not. So work will go on I think with our companies we own we have the next steps to grow the companies we have set up all the right people at the right place at the moment so we can do the next step in growing the companies double return keeping the margins, playing a bigger role in the market as well that's my next challenge and that's I want to prove that it's possible always there want to prove it's possible I need the challenge and at the next step the next challenge I don't know what is approaching you know sometimes people approach me and say Andrea I need you there I have a problem and I need your help there or can you support us and I say yeah let's do it you know I always say a lot of time no, because there are things I'm not interested in and yet the day has 24 hours, the night has 8 that's why we're making here a late night show, So just for information, we're sitting at half past nine in the evening, not in the morning.
[38:54] So the next change is probably growing our own companies, buying an additional company, going into a new market, going into a new country. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea where I am in 10 years. That's good that you don't know, because I'm sure definitely that it would be, if we see it again in 10 years, I think I will be definitely amazed.
[39:20] But I have a point to make, and I would like to ask you here. For example, if you could turn the time back 35, 45 years old, let's say in your 40s, where a lot of people make a change there. I mean, you have a little bit of experience, but not so much, but you say, I have enough of that. But what would you definitely think? What would you change? Let's say, what would you propose? What would you propose this person like, which is 35-45, and who is ready to make the change in these markets?
[39:53] When you're in a job, and you're sitting at your desk at 12 o'clock noon, 12 o'clock noon, and you think... What shall I do this afternoon? I have no idea what I'm doing here. Change it. I was in this position. Now I had a job and I said, Andrea, what the hell are you doing here? I have no clue what they want from me and what shall I do? Eight hours a day, it's quite too long to do this job. After four hours, I was bored. I didn't have anything to do anymore. And I stayed. Okay. And that was a mistake. I should have quit earlier.
[40:30] I had no idea where to go. but there are wasted time so don't waste time in these terms don't waste time, if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit, it won't change, leave it, change it that's why for example if you look in my WhatsApp, change it or leave it I noticed as well, but Andrea thank you very much for being here today I mean I really much enjoyed it and I think it was for me also, revelating knowing that you're doing so many things and I think it would be very inspiring for the people who are listening about that because I think it's also different, I mean, if you search in the internet there will be a lot of things about you, but I think I could cherry pick a lot of things that I also didn't know about you. But thank you very much for being here today. Thank you for having me here, Tim. It was a pleasure as always to meet you and to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. And for you, I hope you enjoyed as well the podcast with Andrea. Stick around and also follow us on our LinkedIn and I could be able to share with you some awesome more insights, and looking forward to be in touch with you also over your messages, which you send me also frequently. But thank you very much for that. And from my standpoint, thank you for listening to the podcast and wait for you the next time. Take care there.
