From Noise to Sound
How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?
In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.
Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.
New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.
From Noise to Sound
#Dr. Alexander Zinser : Talent Whisperer - Decoding the Secrets of Executive Search
This episode features Alexander Zinsler, an executive search expert, discussing career transitions and the evolving job market. Zinsler's own career shift from Chief Legal Officer to executive search provides a unique perspective. He emphasizes the importance of personal development and fulfillment over purely monetary rewards, encouraging listeners to embrace change and strategically plan their careers. He highlights the current "war for talent," noting that companies must prioritize employee development and purpose to attract and retain top performers.
The conversation explores the impact of emerging technologies, particularly AI, on various sectors. Zinsler explains how organizations must adapt by integrating new tools, which in turn requires employees to continuously learn and acquire new skills to remain relevant. He stresses that an ideal candidate possesses not only the necessary skills but also the right personality and cultural fit within an organization. Zinsler describes his methods for assessing these qualities, including networking, communication, and case studies.
The discussion also touches on the importance of continuous education and adaptability in maintaining professional relevance. Zinsler suggests that problem-solving skills and the ability to navigate complexity are becoming more valuable than traditional measures of prestige. Finally, he shares his perspective on remote work, acknowledging the value of flexibility while emphasizing the continued importance of face-to-face interactions for fostering strong team connections and effective communication. This episode offers valuable insights for anyone navigating career transitions or seeking to understand the dynamics of today's rapidly changing job market.
How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?
In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.
Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.
New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.
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[0:00] I'm thinking maybe it's better to have $5,000 or whatever the sum is less than salary, but to have a good development because that's an investment in the mid and the long term. So money is a crucial factor.
[0:16] Hello and welcome to the podcast from Noise to Sound. I'm Dimitrios Marinos and this podcast is presented from HSLU. If you liked the previous episodes, I hope you have subscribed and motivated us. To keep going. It's also for me very important, but also for the people at the high saloon. Today I have a very special guest also from my side, a person that I know also from the past. He's currently in the midst, let's say, of what is very important also in the job market. Also a very interesting career, career change as well. He will explain to us also later on. So I'm very excited that he is today with us.
[0:57] Music.
[1:04] Hello, Alexander Zinsler. Hi, Alex. Hello. Hi, Demi. Good to see you again. Nice to see you as well. Thanks for coming. I really wondered and was looking forward for this exchange with you. To be honest, I think this is a very important time. It's also for the young professionals, for students. And since you are a person from the market, I think your contribution is of an essence. So currently, I don't like the word, but I mean, usually your current job is like a headhunter, let's say. Yes, I'm a headhunter. But what is the wording actually? Because headhunter is what people say in the market. I mean, the official name is I'm an executive search, but at the end, I'm a headhunter.
[1:53] I always, always find it very interesting. And sometimes, you know, I didn't know from my, from my own experience, should I say headhunter, executive services, it's both the same, but the people understand, so it's both to have, it's nice to have both. So, um. What I would like to come back to is, of course, you have a huge background, you're coming from various companies, you were always in the legal, and now you went to executive search, as you mentioned. Can you please guide us a little bit through how did this change drive you?
[2:22] What motivated you this change? How did it come? Yeah, sure. This was a kind of a development for myself. I was, after more than 20 years, or within 20 years of experience in big corporate, I was chief legal officer at various international companies. I was thinking myself, how shall I live the next years for myself in terms of development? And what I have done all the years, I was always a networking person. Yes, I can say that.
[2:59] For example, I was the president of the IMD Alumni Club in Zürich. That's a business club with more than 1,000 people. Then I founded the General Counsel Forum already 15 years ago with General Counsel Forum from Switzerland. And so I was always interested in talking to people. Now, if you think about that in executive search, you have that kind of combination. You have the combination that you meet a lot of interesting people. However, at the very end, you also assess people. The people yes and i think that's the interesting part uh going through the corporate life and also then knowing the legal profession and then to transform that in a in a different profession in executive search and my focus are legal and compliance positions based on on my corporate experience so it's uh that's actually amazing because
[3:55] exactly that's usually what we're trying to promote from this podcast. Let's say that's my, at least my wish to show exactly that, you know, you don't have to marry a position forever.
[4:06] It's, and it comes this point as it came to you, for example, that you were always in this legal part in big corporates and you say, what I'm going to do next. I want to change, for example, it must be something. And then you really search inside you. What's my strong points? I'm a networker and why not? And then it makes sense. And I, And I assume it makes fun. It is a lot of fun for you. It is fun. I don't regret any day in doing so. However, I also want to mention this was not a decision I took just overnight. It took me more or less two years altogether from the thinking about and being more concrete, then getting into discussions with people from the industry until I really resigned from my position and went into executive search. which was a process of around two years. Yeah, I mean, that's what I usually know from other people, but also due to this podcast.
[5:00] I mean, people who have done these changes say also, it took me about two to three years usually to make a change, whatever they did.
[5:08] But I want to go back to this point where you, I mean, you were in the corporate world, and we have young professionals hearing, but also young people starting their career. So if the younger Alex was starting, right um what would you propose him for example i mean in terms of i mean we are a different generation then we're not 20 years old anymore unfortunately unfortunately um and when we i were younger we thought that's the career path that we have to go you start somewhere and more or less you end more or less in the same profession yeah yeah so what you would propose to the younger Alex or two younger people starting a career yeah I mean there's not what should I propose there that's a good question every person is different and every person needs to decide him or herself well that's what's right for for her or for him just therefore just a few general remarks, when I start my career I was working at the international law firm and then I went in-house working for a big corporate. Looking back, working at a law firm and then in multinational companies, that was a good education.
[6:31] And that has guided me throughout my whole career. And that's also now guiding myself in my new old role in executive search. It's education which I gained through the early stage in my career already. So I would say most important is, regardless where you start, you begin your career in a startup or in a big corporate.
[6:57] The big question for yourself is, do I get in that position a good development or not? And then for me, it's less startup or mid-sized company or large multinational. I think the key question is, what is for you in terms of development? I think for me, that's the most crucial and important factor.
[7:22] That's amazing that you say that. I mean, I find it... Quite astonishing because, of course, I mean, we all know or hear a big company can give you possibilities or a small company also. I think I couldn't agree more with you. That is actually the central factor in my perspective that you should invest when you go in a company. I mean, that's what you should look for because the paycheck, it's something that varies always. It can always be better, it can always be different, whatever. But if you don't have the possibility to grow, then you lose, let's say, automatically, in quotes, money for yourself.
[8:03] And I think it goes along, Dimi, it goes along with fulfillment. I mean, money is one part, money is also an important part, but maybe just a thought out of, not out of the sky, but just one thought. Sometimes I'm thinking maybe it's better to have 5,000 or whatever the sum is less than salary, but to have a good development because that's an investment in the mid and the long term. So money is a crucial factor, but I would say also very important is whether you have a growth factor in a company or not.
[8:41] But do you have a feeling now, if we just look in the markets, Do you have a feeling that the companies take that point seriously right now? I think yes. I think yes. I mean, we are living now in a world where employers are looking for candidates. I mean, there's a market for talents. It's a war for talents, not only now, but it was also now since years.
[9:08] And how do we attract talents? I mean, you can have a good coffee, you can have some food and vegetables in a canteen and all these kind of things. This is not important. I mean, this is nice to have. But I think the most important thing is, again, what do you offer in terms of development for people? Apart from the purpose. If there's a purpose in the company, a purpose where you can identify yourself, at the same time, you see growth development opportunity.
[9:39] You may attract talents. If not you may have more or less an issue. Either to attract or to retain right?
[9:48] So it's both cases you can find a person which is hard nowadays and the right person to find is very hard nowadays as I hear from the market but the second hardest thing is to retain this person. I mean both sides sometimes yes sometimes it's hard to retain.
[10:06] Retain people at the same time i'm always sometimes kind of astonished that people stay so long at the same company and there could be good reasons but maybe i'm just thinking maybe also a change for the person would also be good so i don't don't would limit it to the factor that companies is an issue to retain people at the same time it's also for for people that they're still for many years in the same position and they are kind of stuck.
[10:39] It's an interesting perspective because, you know, you hear also from candidates, from young professionals for the market also, hey, if I see a CV with a lot of positions there, I don't think this is a loyal employee, but I also don't see it like that always. I mean, this person wanted to change, wanted to develop, and in development, sometimes you break glasses, and it means like you have to change. I mean, there are some general rules. Just to give you an example, if you change five jobs within five years and you stay for one year, you have some reasons to explain that. But I would say if you stay a decent time at the position and then you move on either within the company or outside the company, that would be a perfect career. Also, I guess, for yourself, you know.
[11:33] However, I would just say, if you stay a little bit, if you stay too long with a company, there could also be good reasons. And maybe within the company, you have also interesting projects all the time. However, at a certain stage, and I'm just now throwing out a number of years, if you stay 15 or 20 years within the company, you have more reasons to explain it to a future employer why they would stay than if you would have changed before. But it's not only about the explanation. It's also about that you ask yourself on a regular basis, is this the right spot I am or not? Yeah, that's absolutely valid. And now we hear it very often, of course.
[12:21] I mean, you are now in the midst, Natalie, you said about the war of talents. That's what you mentioned before. And we know that the sentence plays a lot lately. And if there's a war of talents, especially executive searches, you are in the middle of this war. I mean, you see that firsthand, you're the first line of defense and you have on one side the company is asking for, hey, please find me this type of talent. And you have the other type of talent, hey, I'm a little bit lost. I don't know who could be the right employer. I mean, I'm in executive search. I do positions on the leadership sector.
[13:04] There's less if I may say so there's less a war for tenants the reason is because, people are looking for development they are looking for change, especially on the leadership sector for me the bigger question is not so much in my current role it's not so much about looking for the tenants For me, it's searching for the right person. That's the crucial part. What is the right person for you? In terms of skill set, which is necessary. But most importantly, it's the personality. Does the person fit within the company and vice versa. That's the most important thing. We had this before in another episode where
[13:53] a colleague mentioned exactly the same thing. I mean, it's, that's also very important to stress out. Companies will.
[14:05] Retain will search for the personality. Skills are equally important, but if you don't have a personality, you can be the best crack in the world. It will not happen. And vice versa, if you have the personality and the attitude sometimes, and you lack some type of skill which you can learn, companies might do the extra amount for you. Yes, that's correct. I mean, if you see a potential in a person, then you may hire him or her. I also came across, I mean, I also talk a lot to CEOs, and just most recently a CEO told me, I hired someone with her or whom I saw potential. I didn't have now a good position for her. I gave her a position where she can come into the company, but let's see how she develops. So sometimes companies also do a bold step and hire someone where they see potential without having now the top leadership position for her or him. And I think that's a good pedigree also as a good example for other new employees coming to the company and say, you know what, this happened to her, to him.
[15:27] That means, of course, that I have a potential to move on, to grow on that.
[15:32] But let me flip a little bit this question that I made to you previously.
[15:37] Of course, personality is very important. Where would you say, I mean, in a candidate, or what do you see more often, which is not a make thing, but a break thing. Obviously, in a CV or an attitude, something you say, if I see that it's not moving on I mean it's the interpersonal skills if you come into a room like an elephant, you might be the right person for a certain project but at the very end if you come within.
[16:09] As an elephant into the room that might be an issue I'll just give you an example but what I also see quite often is the communication and I put it a bit differently I'm also doing secret searches. It means I'm filling positions where a person does not know that he will be asked at a certain stage to leave the company. In parallel, I'm looking for someone who will fill this position. And when I ask why will this position need to be filled? In most of the cases, it is said that the communication is missing. And communication, depending on where the position is within the organization, it's both. It is the communication with the stakeholders, but also with the team, but also with subordinates. That's a kind of a pattern. However, at the same time, if a person does not feel comfortable within the company or within the position, he may also be reluctant to communicate so it's a little bit, I'm not always two things yeah yeah I understand what you mean.
[17:22] Communication it's a crucial thing and this is what I also experience in the
[17:26] market very often and I've been also a victim of that as well in some cases in other I communicate very well and I think, and I fully agree with you here it's very situation wise the point I mean it can be that you have a nice project with a nice team and you flourish communicative-wise and it can be that something goes wrong or politics pop up or toxicity pops in. It happens in bigger companies or large projects sometimes, right? And then as a person, you struggle with communication, right? And these things can happen. Now, one of the things that comes very prominent in the market is, I at least receive this question very often being in the IT industry.
[18:12] Right now, we have a trend. AI is of an essence, and this is very central. A lot of people think, I've studied a lot, or I've been in this job a lot.
[18:21] Will I be replaced with AI, or I will lose salary-wise, or will it be not important because AI will be my right hand? Do you have such a feeling? I mean, we don't feel it right now, but I would like to pick a little bit on experience. What do you see coming in this sector? Yeah, Timmy, that's a good question. I have a focus on legal positions, so I answer this from a lawyer perspective. If I think about legal departments, there are legal tech tools, there are amazing legal tech tools, which helps you to review a contract, to analyze contracts, come up with new clauses, all these kind of things. It has already a stage which is quite in a situation where you really can rely, not totally rely, but you have a good understanding of a first draft within Legal Tech.
[19:20] This will shape in the legal sector fundamentally. I would say that the legal department will be completely different in one year, in two years, in five years, depending on the company. But do you think we will need less people in these terms or we need different skills what exactly what what i see right now is uh for now this may change legal departments they do the same work and the work is increasingly tremendously to all the, through all the regulations which are coming right back um yes she is one example oh yeah yeah and And legal departments tend to do more work with the same number of people now with the assistance of legal tech. And that helps also to concentrate on more on different tasks, like strategic tasks and all these kind of things. However, this is for the time being. I would say moving forward, the skill set will change. The skill set in legal department will change AI is changing will change the legal department sector.
[20:39] The legal departments will also need different positions, different capabilities. For example, more and more IT people will have a place within the legal department. We also need to have people who know how to prompt the tools and all this kind of things. But this is for legal departments. Now for the law firms, I see even a more dramatic change. I mean, if legal departments can do a first shot on the legal question by legal tech, the need to go for outside counsel to consult law firms may be less than previously. We had this discussion before in a previous podcast with a consultant, and exactly that was mentioned. Consulting will also extremely change. I mean, all these consulting tasks that we, all companies, let's say, outsourced, I mean, the first line of defense, let's say, will be so minimum in the future, will be something else, but not what we have been used until now. So I want to come a little bit and pick your mind in another direction in terms of I'm a young and ambitious person.
[21:55] I'm 20, 25 years, not me, but I'm considering that I'm 20 years old, ambitious.
[22:04] Finalizing my bachelor's, and I want to be a top shot CEO or whatever. And I mean, previously, we would know, let's say in our times, You have to come to the company, stay along, be loyal, try to do the job, and sometimes try to position yourself accordingly.
[22:25] But the times have changed. So if I was such an ambitious person, what would you advise me? I mean, where should I focus? Focus is good. You should focus at the same time. It goes along with flexibility. I mean, in terms of flexibility, education, training all the time, you need to be relevant. You need to be relevant, otherwise you will be out of the market at a certain stage. I think the most important is being relevant, and being relevant is always also ideally ahead of the curve. Not waiting until you see a development, but going before the wave, before something coming on. Jump on the new technologies, jump them before they really arise. Not be always a bit ahead of the wave. I would say that's the crucial part.
[23:23] Skills are important at the same time the skills will change and they change always so you also need to be flexible in changing your own skill set all the time I think you mentioned a very nice and very interesting point we get to know each other from studies from one side and of course nowadays universities but also the market offer so much education options to update your skills to be relevant as you mentioned.
[23:56] And there's a lot of noise about it and I want to go back to something which was relevant in our generation let's say a little bit before brands let's say of universities the branding is one topic or the knowledge because knowledge is very accessible nowadays but It's a,
[24:18] This is a topic that we are very often discussed. Is it always or still relevant, your pedigree in studies? I mean, where have you studied? I mean, there was this discussion always before, some years you remember that. Is it relevant anymore? I think it's, for me, and that's my personal opinion, you need to have a certain expertise. Otherwise, I'm questioning, how can you fulfill your duties without having an expertise? It might be less relevant what you study. It might be more relevant that you have decent problem-solving skills. Whatever you can, there are different methods how you solve the problems. But I would say problem-solving skills is one of the most important independently of what you study. Because, I mean, we are living in a world which is more complex.
[25:16] And this goes along, going back to what I'm doing in executive search, I come across positions where the companies tell me, we need someone who knows crisis, who knows how to deal with a crisis, how to manage a crisis, how to solve a crisis. And I would say independent of the study things like crisis management problem solving skills are most important How do you search about that?
[25:51] In CV you can highlight some things but at the end of the day I can write whatever I want in a CV at the end of the day how do you find this problem solving crisis management skills on a person how do you do it? How do you express it? How do you communicate as a candidate that I have this cube? I mean first of all in the interview you may you may ask the right questions but you can also see it in a cv in which kind of projects he he worked on uh and then you you go in interview and then sometimes companies depending on the level they also go on a case study and they ask people to let me let's go for a case study and or a presentation this is this are kind of tools where you can assess whether someone has problem-solving skills or not.
[26:43] No, actually, I'm always pro of such assessments. I mean, I think the time where you just have an interview with someone and say, okay, this is a nice guy, and the CV looks good, and I can communicate with this person, it's fine. I think it's passed. So I think, especially when you're doing executive, you have to make sure that it's the right person. And there's another thing which I do on top is the reference check. Aha, that's a good point.
[27:12] For positions, I ask for the reference. And I mean, the candidate, he will name references which are most likely favorable in the person. However if you talk half an hour with someone, who work together with the candidate for a certain time period if I have a conversation with that person for half an hour or even longer you learn a lot you learn a lot, so yeah reference is always a tricky part I mean everyone is really.
[27:49] Speaking from my experience I'm giving the reference is when we are in the further stage. Yes. I mean, at the, at the, at the later stage, I don't give the reference in the beginning because I don't want to bug a person. Let's say in the beginning. And it's a lot of people, I mean, people who are not that professional, perhaps like, like you do it at the end, they just do the reference check very in the beginning and it's not certain. And then someone bugs personally. I mean, it makes no sense and they get frustrated, but I understand.
[28:17] And so for me, it's also interesting when I see, I mean, you were also a candidate. I mean, what is the struggle that you faced as Alex? I mean, you were legal and you changed executive search. It took you two years, first of all, to realize I would like to make a change. I would like to make this kind of change. And this is my sector. So what was the biggest struggle that you have experienced in between to find the spot? I mean, that's a good question, Demi. I started an executive search and I just did it without thinking, for sure. But I just jumped into this new role. I'm working hard. I mean, that might be a factor.
[29:05] I'm working hard, but apart from that, I just did now 100% what I also did before in addition to my day-to-day job. I mean, it's networking. I'm meeting a lot of people every day, you know. So for me, it was not really a struggle.
[29:23] I just did what I like. you liked yeah of course i mean i mean i was merely i wouldn't try to to reach out this point where you wanted to make the the the big flip from from legal to executive so you wanted this change the the the psychological part of the change not the
[29:43] practical part of the change you know i want something new i want is this something that i would like to do for the rest of my life and then you changed so how in this journey how do you kick start such a journey let's say how how do you really process it i mean when when i started it for sure i was thinking is that the right thing or not so i just started it and then there was for me at a certain stage no point of return and because i i'm just like what i'm doing i think that might be now an easy answer but that was for me more the case. I'm doing what I like. At the same time, just to make it a little bit clear, for sure I worked out of the legal profession in terms I'm not reviewing contracts anymore and this kind of things.
[30:37] However, I'm on a daily basis. I'm in contact with general counsel, senior legal counsel, and that's important that I understand what's going on there so i'm i'm i'm still linked to the legal profession the only thing is i'm not actually working as a lawyer yeah yeah i i that's that's that's i find fascinating also the chains but you keep the underline but you change your your role let's say yes which is which is which is great actually uh also as a message for me you know you can always be keep your core skill and you can change the way you act in these terms. So.
[31:16] You are operating in Switzerland mainly? Not only. I operate in the DACH region, but also beyond. I have also assignments. I'm just doing that without going into details. I'm doing now some assignments in the United States. I'm also doing one now in Asia. So I started in Switzerland for sure, in Switzerland and Germany, and now I'm expanding what I'm doing. You reach out that's that's that's great but what i would like to understand a little bit from your expertise as you
[31:47] started in switzerland how do you see this job market here in switzerland we are all experiencing a little bit of a boiling let's say change is happening and the people are missing somehow the new technology is coming in companies uh they try to find themselves what what is your feeling about the swiss job market i mean i i come and also come around a bit so i see also countries other than switzerland i mean for sure a lot of changes are coming but i if i think about the job market in switzerland i mean there are still a lot of good opportunities around and if you look at the unemployment rate, that's considerably low.
[32:34] So I would say in Switzerland it's still a good place to work and also a good place to land a job. If you compare that with other countries, we should not forget that. In Switzerland, you really have a lot of multinational companies. You have also good startups. You have a good scene, which is really somehow not unique but which could be really attractive for candidates. But I would say as a general rule again, you stay flexible, stay open, stay curious and most importantly stay hungry. Stay hungry. That's a nice point that's more or less to wrap the discussion up in terms of, if you're a young professionally, it is very important. I would say, yes, Switzerland is still a very good place to find and land a job for sure, and we should not forget that the size of the country.
[33:37] Allows a lot of flexibility. I mean, if you live in Zurich, it doesn't stop you to work in Luzern or in Bern. It's not that difficult. So your reach out is a lot broader. So from these terms, I think also it is a very valid point. What I also mean with flexibility is in terms of being flexible geographically. I mean, as you mentioned, the distance between Winterthur and Zürich and Zug and Bars and Bern, I mean, it's one hour by train wherever you live.
[34:12] I just also hear about cases where people decline a good opportunity in terms of development just because of the logistics. And since COVID, I mean, you may always stay one or two days working from home, which before was less the case. So I would also say being flexible in terms of your place of work can also help.
[34:40] But you give me a nice pass, which I would like to place as a last question.
[34:45] I mean, we have a lot of discussion, especially in the big tech world, but also in general, this remote work.
[34:52] Remote work in some companies is strongly questioned yes for i think for good reasons of course it's good reasons so i would like to pick your mind like being less in the executive shirt right how do you see this remote work culture that has been said it through corona and it was somehow here to stay for a lot of people let's say but also in their mindset so What's your pick there? I mean, for executives, for leadership positions, this is not an issue. I mean, if you are in a certain position, I think it's essential that you are at least four days on the ground in the company. So that's not a question. It's more a question of the teams and working together. And there are different approaches and each company is different how hard they are with working from home or within the company. However what I hear from executive is basically if the regulation is too loose I mean you are one day in the office or two days, a lot of things we miss yeah that's what I and also for the person because the person will not be connected yeah I think both part is losing.
[36:16] I think yes the flexibility is good that you can say you know what I have back-to-back meetings and stayed at home. Makes no sense to be at the office. On the other hand, if you're at the office, you connect with people, you also feel more fulfilled having talked to people, which is actually also good, and we're forgetting that as well. So it's a win-win. So for me personally, the fact that this question, I find it actually, it's a good discussion at this point. We're not in Corona anymore. Yes. Luckily. Yes, yeah, yeah. Alex, thank you very, very much for being here today. I really enjoyed our discussions and I hope you guys also enjoyed it as well. Thank you, Timmy. Thank you for being here. So from my side, I hope you also enjoyed the episodes. This one, but also the previous one, stay tuned with us also in LinkedIn and allow me to share with you some my thoughts, but also articles that I find relevant. And I hope to see you in the next episodes from Noise to Sound. Until then, stay healthy and... I hear to you soon. Goodbye to everyone.
